Although I agree with the number, this time, isn't using the CATO institute about like using Gail Ruzika as an unbaised opinion. You know what the result will be even before you read the numbers.

I think the current administration our "pretty great state" loves so much has shown how well Republicans conrtol spending. Spend like there's no tommorow while promoting the fiction of fiscal responsibility. Basically, screw the disenfranchised, give to business and the rich, and claim that's fiscally responsible. It's pretty sad when Clinton was the last President to balance the budget.

So, now please explain how the people of Utah are "uniquely generous". I've never seen anything that shows the people of Utah are even close to the generousity of most other States once you remove the required 10% tithing most active Mormons are required to pay in order to visit their temples. Once you remove, what is for all intents and purposes, the required good membership dues, Utah doesn't even place when it comes to charitable contributions.

We do not do fiscal restraint in Utah. In this year's general legislative session, the most 'painful choices' that legislators had to make were about where to spent that $1 billion surplus. They couldn't even bring themselves to figure out how to give a measly 7% of it back to the people that overpaid without holding a special session this fall.

There are always cries about the "needs" of government. Human nature dictates that there will always be more "needs" than revenue, but only because we're very confused about what constitutes a need. If government were smaller and less intrusive, many of these "needs" would evaporate or would be taken care of by those that should appropriately deal with them.

I can only surmise by the way our elected officials vote and by whom we choose to put in those positions, that we Utahns are generally socially conservative but fiscally liberal. Few of us seem to be concerned much about government spending or about the amount of government intrusion into our personal lives.

Our state has a strong communal heritage. It seems that this has carried over into our perceptions about the proper role of government.

Actually, Utahns are among the most generous in the nation.

All we need to do to get the legislature's attention though is to propose to build a parking garage for charity or dangle special interest carrots out in front of them. Then they'll listen for sure.

I am posting info from the legislative site. There are upcoming committee meetings where you the public can have a say in where the state funds go to. Click on the link
http://www.le.state.ut.us/
See interim meetings pick a subject or area and voice your opinion. Hint, most of the budget output is preplanned before December.
http://www.governor.utah.gov/dea/

Also check out this link as well. The legislative links above has info on Utah Code and Utah Adminstrative Rules. The regs and rules that govern us in every day law. Learn how the rules are changed and how you can have some input.
http://www.rules.utah.gov/main/
http://www.le.state.ut.us/Documents/staff.htm
If you want to learn more about bills contact a fiscal analyst with the Utah legislature.

Well is tootoo says Utahns are among the most generous in the nation (excluding Mormon temple dues) -- they must be. I can ignore actual facts now.

When you can find somebody breaking out giving between secular and religous charities, here's the normal type of stats you will find.

"In Utah, much of the charitable giving is in the form of tithing to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Across the nation, more than $3 of every $4 donated was given to houses of worship and religious causes, the study found.

Outside the church, United Way of Salt Lake raised only $8.2 million last year, far less than the $26 million the agency raises in other cities of equal size, chief executive officer Deborah Bayle Nielsen told the Chronicle.

The United Way has ranked Utah 48th in the nation for per-capita giving to secular charities."

United Way is not the only group finding Utah near the bottom of the country when it comes to charity not going to the church.

The United Way has it's own problems. There are historical reasons that LDS folk don't give to United Way. I don't think those reasons still apply, but they persist in people's minds.

That aside, I think you can paint any picture you want if you start choosing which charities *you* consider good and then throwing out the rest. You may not like the the bulk of my charitable giving goes to the LDS church, but I probably don't like some of the charities you give to.

You want to start picking mine and I'll pick yours? Or maybe you think the government ought to do it?

Phil. I generally respect your opinions and I realize that you didn't write the original one here. Although if you are as far out on the libertarian scale as the writer's website suggests, my opinion goes down.

Anyway, the full on altruistic view of charity is that it is given without any expectation of special treatment or value to the person giving. I don't personally give to United Way either. However, I do give to other charities, and I don't get anything back except for the knowlege that my money supports things I believe in with no obvious value coming back to me.

There are a few statistics of LDS charitable giving, but they are few and far between. Needless to say, previous to tithing being required in order to receive a temple recommend tithing receipts were significantly lower than they are now. Considering no LDS person can be considered a member in good standing, or receive a temple recommend without paying tithing, it's hard to put forth the argument that 100% of all the "charitable" giving is being given with no expectation of receiving something valuable because of the giving. Tithing is regularly referred to as "fire insurance" in LDS circles. Again implying some value beyond the unselfness giving.

To say that Utahns are the some of the most generous peole in the country is not accurate. Utahns give more of their money to charity than most other states, but it is often for reasons than being generous. I have no question that many many LDS believe that their tithing is being used for the best purposes of any charitable giving in the world, but the few numbers availble since the 1930's when you can start tracking temple recommends being tied to more measurable aspects of temple readyness like specific church attendence, word of wisdom and tithing show that ththing receipts show a direct correlation to it's requirements for temple recommends. And, that's not generousity.

It's not just an LDS thing. The other "generous" States are using church tithing to prove good membership practices as well. United Way is just one measure that shows the true generousity of Utahns. You can argue there's some form of reason United Way is against Utahn's values, but you can't show anything that puts Utah near the top half of truly generous giving.

I spend several hundred hours a year working for local charities in the sTATE. 90% of all volunteer work and money comes from non-Mornoms. Every charity in the State knows that you don't get money from Mormons. They keep it all in the family.

One last comment, and I'll drop things.

"That aside, I think you can paint any picture you want if you start choosing which charities *you* consider good and then throwing out the rest."

That's quite a strawman isn't it. It's pretty easy to knock down an argument I never made. I consider ALL charities, not some charities, EVERY charity registered in the State of Utah to be "good". The LDS Church is not a charity. It is a tax exempt religion. That's different. I'm comparing non-religous giving. It's impossible to combat the fact that Utahns do not give to charities. They give to the LDS Church. I don't care if you give to SUWA or the Utah Shared Access Alliance. Whether it's Planned Parenthood or No More Homeless Pets, it doesn't matter. Utahns don't give enough to be more than the background noise level and you can't come up with a statistic to show otherwise.

Never assume that what you read on Utah Politics coincides with my opinion unless I wrote it.

Whether it's a "charity" from the IRS perspective or not, I suspect that most people giving to it and most people getting aid from it consider their church a charity.

I appreciate that you've drawn a bright line: "charity means you don't get anything back," even if I disagree with what I consider your vast overstatement of the tangible rewards that members of the LDS church "get back."

I've never personally thought in terms of "I'd better pay my tithing or I can't go to the temple..." I view it as the right thing to do because it's what I believe God expects of me and do it for that reason. Fast offerings and other special contributions (like for vicitms of tsunami) are, of course, not required for temple attendence.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I think. Niether one of us is making much headway convincing the other. :-)

Thanks for the civil comments. We will indeed disagree, althoug not in a bad way. I think we've come full circle. We're back to the start. You say giving because "it's what I believe God expects of me." is generous charity. I say tithing that's almost excusively used on behalf of those in the group given because God expects it isn't the definition of charity.

We live in different worlds. In Utah and Arkansas I'm the minority. It other places I'm not. Such is life. Red and Blue. Take care.

You people, who argue that Mormon giving is somehow irrelevant and non-charitable, are nothing but small minded bigots.

Does it somehow cost less for these people to open their wallets and take money from their budgets to give to their church? No. Does it put their budgets under less pressure to give a huge amount of their income for no financial reward in return, just because it is for a particular religion? No. In fact their budgets are under more stress because they give more than most! Do they gain some monetary reward from temple attendance that will make their donations less of a draw on their finances? No. Do all full tithe payers attend the temple? No. Is this sacrifice that they make somehow financially irrelevant to their families because their big bad church forces them to do it? No, it is a financially significant part of those household budgets!

So these people aren’t sacrificing? They aren’t charitable? Their donations mean nothing because it is to the Mormon church? Mormons are actually the least charitable people in the nation, the most selfish?

How convenient, to dismiss the fact that you have here a group of people who have excelled at charity with the urging of their religious leaders, all because of your bigoted feelings about Mormons, or the religious in general. It must be nice to live in a world where it is so easy to classify human behavior for such a large group of people.

Shiffman I am not LDS third generation and we are treated like third class citizens. We dontate and generate a ton of money not for a church. Even need charity? I have sadly and went I went for help from the LDS church and the state I was turned down.

I used to be much more wealth, paid 38 pefcent of my income yes 38 the IRS did that once, in taxes and recived nothing back when I needed it.

I have a small family so I pay a bigger tax burdern those with large families pay nothing and add the tithing on you pay nothing and get back more from the EIC.

FRAUD is the problem. 4 millions of it was just lost in Davis County. The state takes in small than normal fed tax dollars via grants. They take small ones as to GOD FORBID put out any of the now 1 bill last year and now 1.6 bill surplus this year of your tax dollars back to agencies that help srs, the disabled. or even god forbid VETS! The state will only take in small less than 1 mil in grants so no string attached. We the people pay those taxes in fed gas taxes and many other federal taxes. So, why doesnt the state take that money back. We tack back the least of almost any state.

Church tithing does not help non members.

Even former gov Leavitt saw a tax loophole in becoming a non profit. Do you know how many of those non profit never help anyone?

Go to the IRS site to learn more better yet go to the SLC main library and see. Tons of money goes into tax shelter non profits who do little or no charity work as required by state and fed tax laws.

Utahns are to eager to never question authority and we are the scam capital and fraud capital of the US. Two fed investigators are here looking at things now. From corrupt state and school distric workers to defrocked judges and court clerks Utah is wilting in fraud now. Shame us for thinkg we are so pure. White collar crime jumped 50 percent just in the last 4 yrs in Utah.

Oh yes, the state is growing by leap and bounds so naturally spending goes up. THe porblem is the lack of accountability. Audits are done but they mean nothing and nothing has to change thanks to Utah code (law) The states population is 2.6 million. We have grown about 1 mil just in the last 15 yrs and most of that in the last ten years. The state wooed business and tourism here a thing that was once not liked by the LDS. I remember hearing and being told at school in the 70s to be nice to the tourst but not to nice that they want to live here. Kiss the skiiers for they provide huge money to the that so we wont have to pay taxes. I am not making this up. I used to hear on the radio "we do not need the fed dollars for our roads (which were giant open pits then and BAD) because we do not want the feds butting in on our lives.

I was raised in an LDS household but I never really believed in the church. I went to church paid tithing like a good little automoton droid. When I came of missionary age there was intense pressure on me to serve a mission. It was expected of me. I knew it wasn't for me so I left the church and I was looked down on by my family and the community. It's been 12 years now and I am raising my children to tolerate others and be open minded. I recently had a son born with several heart defects. I had to quit my job to care for him at home since he can't be in any day care. The financial burden on my family is great and I got some small help from a few different sources but not enough.Having nowhere else to turn I called the 211 community resource line. They told me to talk to my bishop. I was rather upset about this, that they assumed since I was a Utahn that I was automatically a Mormon. Anyway, having nowhere else to go I did ask for help from the bishop and I was told that if I wanted the help I would have to find a way to work at the bishop's storehouse or a D.I. store to "pay" for their charity. This is what the Mormon church is all about. The fact is, if you aren't a temple recommend holder or a true believer you don't matter. So you can continue to believe that you are doing God's will while this church turns away the sick and the poor.

and if you have to here it from Jesus himself:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him,
saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

- Matthew 25:42-46

I'm actually the opposite of ATXD here. I'm at the "missionary age" (18 going on 19) and love and appreciate what the LDS teching have done for me. I can't deny what I know to be true. Now, although the pure doctrine of the church is true (at least I know it is), it does not mean the members are just as pure. We (members) are just as human as anyone else. Some do not act as they should, assuming anyone in Utah is a Mormon or looking down on non-members or some other act of pettiness. Do not judge the church or all the members by the faults of few. Remember, the church is named after Christ-he was the only one that was truly perfect and we're just trying to follow his example.